Music Man Movie

[Gary Nichols]

Does anyone else notice that in the Movie 'The Music Man' when Harold
Hill is getting ready to leave town and the Buddy Hackett character is
trying to hurry him along Buddy Hackett says some such as "Hurry up
Greg"? There is no other reference to Prof. Hill being named 'Greg'
in the movie that I can find. Now I assume his name is not Harold
Hill but is it Greg?

Gary Nichols

[Spelvin]

Post by Gary Nichols
Does anyone else notice that in the Movie 'The Music Man' when Harold
Hill is getting ready to leave town and the Buddy Hackett character is
trying to hurry him along Buddy Hackett says some such as "Hurry up
Greg"? There is no other reference to Prof. Hill being named 'Greg'
in the movie that I can find. Now I assume his name is not Harold
Hill but is it Greg?
Gary Nichols

Gary, you might be seeing a cut version! When Harold first comes upon
Marcellus in the livery stable, Marcellus comes out from behind a horse
and the very first thing he says is, "Gregory!"

Harold goes, "Ssssh! Hill's the name this trip... Harold Hill."

In the novelization of the screenplay, by Meredith Willson himself, you
find some extra dialogue and short scenes which apparently were filmed
but cut from the final print. When asked how he came up with the name
"Harold Hill," he tells Marcellus that it's his genuine,
honest-to-goodness, real name.

Here I sit, getting older by the minute, and I can't for the life of me
remember if he says that in the movie -- and I've seen it over 25 times!
(It's my favorite movie of all time.)

Oh, well. In a future essay I'm going to tell something I stumbled on
which made me think I knew how Meredith Willson came up with the name
"Harold Hill." Watch for it, coming soon to a newsgroup near you!

Spelvin

[Beb11572]

Post by Spelvin
In the novelization of the screenplay, by Meredith Willson himself, you
find some extra dialogue and short scenes which apparently were filmed
but cut from the final print. When asked how he came up with the name
"Harold Hill," he tells Marcellus that it's his genuine,
honest-to-goodness, real name.

What kind of con man would be stupid enough to scam people like that using his
real name?!

[Lyle K. Neff]

Post by Beb11572
What kind of con man would be stupid enough to scam people like that using
his real name?!

But using a fake name is just what they're expecting him to do!

:)

[Jon A Conrad]

Post by Beb11572
What kind of con man would be stupid enough to scam people like that using his
real name?!

The same kind that would be stupid enough to run a scam that requires him
to stick around for weeks until the instruments in uniforms he orders and
PAYS FOR (you could maybe stiff the suppliers once, but not a second
time), making in the end exactly the same profit margin he would if he
were totally legit. Or maybe a little more if he hikes the retail rates
somewhat, but aren't there easier ways to cheat people out of their money?

Don't misunderstand, I've always loved THE MUSIC MAN and still do, and my
admiration for it has grown to the point that I consider it one of the
tiny handful of truly great, near-perfect examples of the form. And it
took me more than 40 years' acquaintance with the show for this angle to
hit me. But still, now that it has hit me? Worst. con. ever.

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by Jon A Conrad
The same kind that would be stupid enough to run a scam that requires him
to stick around for weeks until the instruments in uniforms he orders and
PAYS FOR (you could maybe stiff the suppliers once, but not a second
time), making in the end exactly the same profit margin he would if he
were totally legit. Or maybe a little more if he hikes the retail rates
somewhat, but aren't there easier ways to cheat people out of their money?

The deal itself can be totally honest. The fraud is that he uses the
promise of instruction to get the deal at all.

[Jon A Conrad]

Post by John W. Kennedy

Post by Jon A Conrad
The same kind that would be stupid enough to run a scam that requires him
to stick around for weeks until the instruments in uniforms he orders and
PAYS FOR (you could maybe stiff the suppliers once, but not a second
time), making in the end exactly the same profit margin he would if he
were totally legit. Or maybe a little more if he hikes the retail rates
somewhat, but aren't there easier ways to cheat people out of their money?

The deal itself can be totally honest. The fraud is that he uses the
promise of instruction to get the deal at all.

OK, but what's in it for him? The joy of cackling to himself, on the fast
train out of town, "Ha ha! I promised them music lessons and they never
got any!" as he counts his honest 2 months' earnings?

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by Jon A Conrad
OK, but what's in it for him? The joy of cackling to himself, on the fast
train out of town, "Ha ha! I promised them music lessons and they never
got any!" as he counts his honest 2 months' earnings?

The assumption is that he wouldn't have made /any/ sale without the
promise of lessons.

[Harlett O'Dowd]

Post by Jon A Conrad
OK, but what's in it for him? The joy of cackling to himself, on the fast
train out of town, "Ha ha! I promised them music lessons and they never
got any!" as he counts his honest 2 months' earnings?

I think the key to Hill is the footbridge scene when he daydreams of leading
the band and his confrontation with Winthrop when he says, "I always think
there's a band, kid." It's never fully explained (good!) but part of Hill,
I think, is that he IS a frustrated musician - kinda a Mamma Rose who never
had the chance to learn how to play. I think that's why, of all the things
these people "don't need" he keeps going back to the one thing HE wanted and
never got as a kid.

For me, the beauty of TMM is the miracle he provides the town - he turns it
and everyone in it into a LIVING musical comedy. Many of us here believe
that life should be a musical and people SHOULD be able to sing and dance to
express joy when mere words will no longer suffice. Hill shows River City -
and all of us - that music(als) is cool and should be embraced by all. Not
only do I find TMM a great musical COMEDY, it is also (for me) a very
emotional experience. 30+ times seeing the film (and numerous stage
productions) I still get a little verclempt in spots.

Ever notice how many other Hills followed TMM? Molly Brown, Dolly, Mame and
Cervantes/Quixote have a similar effect on the people they come in contact
with. Most of the numbers in these later shows - especially the production
numbers all erupt from the fascinating character who is the epicenter of the
show in question.

For my money, TMM is one of the 5 greatest musicals of all time.

[Steve Newport]

From: ***@worldspan.com (Harlett=A0O'Dowd) For my money, TMM
is one of the 5 greatest musicals of all time.
--------------------------------------
Of course, those introduced to it through the Matthew Broderick TV
version.......



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[Bill]

Spelvin: << Besides, it's really a cartoon which defies analysis. Why
did River City have such a bumbling mayor, who mispronounces words and
misreads announcements? >>
...............
Are you referring to the Hon. George W. Shinn? 'Cuz they got Trouble,
with a capital 'T' and that rhymes with 'V' and that stands for Voting
Booths from Florida.

Drumm

[Steve Newport]

a bumbling mayor, who mispronounces words and misreads announcements
-----------------------------------
And wins a Tony, but doesn't get to do the movie.



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[Bill]

Apart from the song "Shipoopi," which I detest, the only real bad thing
in the movie for me is the unbelievably inept blond girl (blue dress) in
"76 Trombones" gymnasium sequence. She mouths lyrics while Preston is
singing, watches the other kids for her dance cues, and can't dance.
Probably a studio executive's daughter.

Drumm

[Steve Newport]

***@webtv.net (Bill) unbelievably inept blond girl (blue dress) in
"76 Trombones" gymnasium sequence. She mouths lyrics while Preston is
singing, watches the other kids for her dance cues, and can't dance.
-----------------------------
The young Susan Stroman?



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[Melanie]

On 11/20/2004 8:47 PM, in article

Post by Harlett O'Dowd
is one of the 5 greatest musicals of all time.
--------------------------------------
Of course, those introduced to it through the Matthew Broderick TV
version.......
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

Even my (then) pre-teen niece and nephew had the good taste to turn that one
off BEFORE they got to Trouble.

Melanie

[Steve Newport]

***@cbmmag.net (Melanie)
<<<For my money, TMM is one of the 5 greatest musicals of all time. Of
course, those introduced to it through the Matthew Broderick TV
version.>>>
-------------------------------------
Even my (then) pre-teen niece and nephew had the good taste to turn that
one off BEFORE they got to Trouble.
-------------------------------------
Those travelling salesboys and chirping townies got to them, too?



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[Steven Leifer]

Very perceptive. When I played Harold Hill last year, I wondered why he ALWAYS
picked on the piano teachers in each town. I decided that his mother was musical
and his father was a ragman and they could never afford a piano and lessons for
little Gregory. As an adult, this becomes his revenge on his dreary childhood.
And he gets to glamorize and outclass the ragman into a full-fledged salesman.

Post by Harlett O'Dowd

Post by Jon A Conrad
OK, but what's in it for him? The joy of cackling to himself, on the fast
train out of town, "Ha ha! I promised them music lessons and they never
got any!" as he counts his honest 2 months' earnings?

I think the key to Hill is the footbridge scene when he daydreams of leading
the band and his confrontation with Winthrop when he says, "I always think
there's a band, kid." It's never fully explained (good!) but part of Hill,
I think, is that he IS a frustrated musician - kinda a Mamma Rose who never
had the chance to learn how to play. I think that's why, of all the things
these people "don't need" he keeps going back to the one thing HE wanted and
never got as a kid.
For me, the beauty of TMM is the miracle he provides the town - he turns it
and everyone in it into a LIVING musical comedy. Many of us here believe
that life should be a musical and people SHOULD be able to sing and dance to
express joy when mere words will no longer suffice. Hill shows River City -
and all of us - that music(als) is cool and should be embraced by all. Not
only do I find TMM a great musical COMEDY, it is also (for me) a very
emotional experience. 30+ times seeing the film (and numerous stage
productions) I still get a little verclempt in spots.
Ever notice how many other Hills followed TMM? Molly Brown, Dolly, Mame and
Cervantes/Quixote have a similar effect on the people they come in contact
with. Most of the numbers in these later shows - especially the production
numbers all erupt from the fascinating character who is the epicenter of the
show in question.
For my money, TMM is one of the 5 greatest musicals of all time.

[Jon A Conrad]

Post by Harlett O'Dowd
For me, the beauty of TMM is the miracle he provides the town - he turns it
and everyone in it into a LIVING musical comedy.

Exactly. (And by the way, I thank Spelvin for his excellent answer to my
question -- very much the same answer I give myself when I'm arguing with
myself about this.) That's precisely the beauty of the show and it
becomes more and more evident to me with each new viewing. And the story
is an inspirationally well chosen one for the medium.

Post by Harlett O'Dowd
Ever notice how many other Hills followed TMM? Molly Brown, Dolly, Mame and
Cervantes/Quixote have a similar effect on the people they come in contact
with.

Yes, it seems to be one of the basic (American, or universal?) myths that
we want to see enacted. Or for an example closer to home, Starbuck in 110
IN THE SHADE, which is sort of "The Music Man with rain instead of band
instruments." And in both cases, the essential point that completes the
story is the idea that the outsider/conman, unknown to himself, really
*could* do what he was pretending to: he was an authentic bringer of
music/rain, which in terms of the respective stories means a bringer of
joy to the community.

Post by Harlett O'Dowd
For my money, TMM is one of the 5 greatest musicals of all time.

You'll get no disagreement from me.

----

By the way, that novelization is pretty clearly Willson's own work. He has
fun with the idea that the characters are "really" singing these lyrics on
the streets of River City (I don't know one way or the other if their
inclusion was required of him, but he takes the idea and runs with it),
and describes the Lida Rose / Will I Ever Tell You sequence in some such
words as "impromptu counterpoint in the summer evening."

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu

[Spelvin]

Post by Jon A Conrad
Yes, it seems to be one of the basic (American, or universal?) myths
that we want to see enacted. Or for an example closer to home,
Starbuck in 110 IN THE SHADE, which is sort of "The Music Man with
rain instead of band instruments.

Just last night, in discussing this thread with my brother, he asked if
anyone pointed out the similarities between THE MUSIC MAN and the play
and movie "The Rainmaker," which were on display during the long period
that Willson was working on his masterpiece.

I hate to think Willson did any plagiarising from the Nash play/movie,
but the similarities are there -- besides the ones Jon pointed out, we
have the somewhat phoney super salesman bringing love to a repressed
virgin, if I may put it that way.

It's a wonderful idea that bringing music into peoples' lives will cure
all their ills. This is absolutely the theme of THE SOUND OF MUSIC,
which obviously resonated with millions of people all over the world.
I'm not sure how true it is, but I do know that without music, my life
would be even drearier than it is.

It's interesting that the three longest running Broadway musicals of the
ones that opened in the 1950s -- i.e., MY FAIR LADY, THE SOUND OF MUSIC
and THE MUSIC MAN -- all revolve around the theme of transformation. A
prisoner of the gutters is transformed into a princess ONLY by learning
how to talk and dress better -- a regimented, loveless family is turned
into Norman Rockwell in Austria ONLY by learning how to sing -- a sad,
dreary, mean-spirited town is turned into a microcosm of joy ONLY by
being promised a boys' band! What was really going on in these shows is
that Higgins, Maria and Hill were bringing out peoples' hidden
potentials -- they could have done it all along; they only needed to be
shown how. This is truly an inspiring message which I believe goes a
long way to explaining the immense popularity of these three shows.

Real life is SO different. The U.S. is misguidedly trying to bring
"democracy" to a country that never gave a single thought to the
happiness of people in the U.S., and it takes years (probably) of
bombing the hell out of them to bring them to their "senses." Where are
the real life Harold Hills and Marias who could do it with a pitch pipe
and a guitar? (I know Maria was SUPPOSED to be a real life person, but
I somehow suspect it really didn't happen the way the play tells it.
The kids go from not knowing "do" from "re" to singing like
professionals in something like five minutes. The movie definitely
improved on the "singing lesson" by at least stretching it out over an
afternoon of picnicking and bicycling.)

Spelvin

[Steve Newport]

***@nospam.net (Spelvin)
without music, my life would be even drearier than it is.
------------------------------------
Without theatre music I would have packed it in years ago.
-------------------------------------
Spelv: the three longest running Broadway musicals of the ones that
opened in the 1950s -- i.e., MY FAIR LADY, THE SOUND OF MUSIC and THE
MUSIC MAN
---------------------------------------
Still among the greatest.



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[Spelvin]

Post by Jon A Conrad

Post by Beb11572
What kind of con man would be stupid enough to scam people like that
using his real name?!

The same kind that would be stupid enough to run a scam that requires
him to stick around for weeks until the instruments in uniforms he
orders and PAYS FOR (you could maybe stiff the suppliers once, but not
a second time), making in the end exactly the same profit margin he
would if he were totally legit. Or maybe a little more if he hikes the
retail rates somewhat, but aren't there easier ways to cheat people
out of their money?
Don't misunderstand, I've always loved THE MUSIC MAN and still do, and
my admiration for it has grown to the point that I consider it one of
the tiny handful of truly great, near-perfect examples of the form.
And it took me more than 40 years' acquaintance with the show for this
angle to hit me. But still, now that it has hit me? Worst. con. ever.

Not only a near-perfect example of the form, but one with a unique
voice, both musically and in the use of language. Meredith Willson shot
his bolt with that one and had nothing left to give.

Also, the movie version is a text book example of how to film a Broadway
show, achieving to me a perfect balance of staginess and cinema (1962,
cinema, that is, before it all became about camerawork and editing to
the detriment of everything else.)

But it's not the worst con ever. As I said, and I'll say it again, he
couldn't be TOO much of a villain, because he's the hero of the show --
the one we root for, and relate to. It was a mild scam, no big deal.
He was an honest businessman, but he was a great master of selling
people things they had no use for. That's really what it's about. He
wasn't so much a con man as an unethical super-salesman. You're
bringing assumptions into your argument that Meredith Willson never
intended.

Besides, it's really a cartoon which defies analysis. Why did River
City have such a bumbling mayor, who mispronounces words and misreads
announcements? Why have a school board where they all don't speak to
each other? Why is there a 15 year gap between Marian and Winthrop?
Why does the mayor's wife have a British accent? How could four people
who never sang before in their lives within seconds turn into a world
class barbershop quartet? How could a kid who never even spoke two
words a day to his own family run into the street and sing in front of
everyone just because he got a cornet? And I could go on, but that's
enough! After all, this is my favorite musical we're pulling apart
here.

Spelvin

[Kevin Marshall]

Post by Spelvin
Why have a school board where they all don't speak to
each other?

That's pretty much like life in New Orleans.

[Spelvin]

Post by Kevin Marshall

Post by Spelvin
Why have a school board where they all don't speak to
each other?

That's pretty much like life in New Orleans.

St. Louisans WISH the school board members wouldn't speak to each other.
They're constantly fighting with and threatening each other -- the
police were called out TWICE the other night. They're the embarrassment
of an already embarrassing city.

Spelvin

[Spelvin]

Post by Beb11572

Post by Spelvin
In the novelization of the screenplay, by Meredith Willson himself,
you find some extra dialogue and short scenes which apparently were
filmed but cut from the final print. When asked how he came up with
the name "Harold Hill," he tells Marcellus that it's his genuine,
honest-to-goodness, real name.

What kind of con man would be stupid enough to scam people like that
using his real name?!

It's not stupid, it's brilliant!

It's the same general idea as in Poe's "The Purloined Letter." No one
thought to look for the stolen letter with the rest of the mail on the
desk -- what crook would be stupid enough to hide it in plain sight?

So they all say, "What crook would be stupid enough to use his real
name? So, whoever he is, all we know for sure is that he ISN'T Harold
Hill."

I just wish I had his personality. That's 90% of the battle in life.

Spelvin

[Steve Newport]

In the novelization of the screenplay, by Meredith Willson himself, you
find some extra dialogue and short scenes which apparently were filmed
but cut from the final print.
-------------------------------------
Willson did the novelization without being credited for the screenplay?
(Marion Hargrove.)



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[DgSWEET]

Nobody should pay the slightest bit of attention to credits given to
novelization. Orson Welles once found his name attached to a bad novelization
of one of his movies, something he'd had no hand in. He was proud of his
writing and he found being associated with crap galling.

Unlike the rest of us, of course.

[Spelvin]

Post by DgSWEET
Nobody should pay the slightest bit of attention to credits given to
novelization. Orson Welles once found his name attached to a bad
novelization of one of his movies, something he'd had no hand in. He
was proud of his writing and he found being associated with crap
galling.
Unlike the rest of us, of course.

But I think Meredith Willson really did write the novelization of the
screenplay. It's very much in his style.

Any fan of the movie should track this paperback book down. It's loaded
with pictures from the movie, including some cut scenes. The
"Pickalittle" reprise was filmed, but cut for mysterious reasons. They
shouldn't have cut it -- it tells us that among his other miracles,
Harold has reconciled the "society" ladies with Marian, and even got
them reading the books they had previously found so disgusting. Eulalie
even proudly holds up her Balzac!

Spelvin

[Melanie]

Post by Spelvin

Post by Gary Nichols
Does anyone else notice that in the Movie 'The Music Man' when Harold
Hill is getting ready to leave town and the Buddy Hackett character is
trying to hurry him along Buddy Hackett says some such as "Hurry up
Greg"? There is no other reference to Prof. Hill being named 'Greg'
in the movie that I can find. Now I assume his name is not Harold
Hill but is it Greg?
Gary Nichols

Gary, you might be seeing a cut version! When Harold first comes upon
Marcellus in the livery stable, Marcellus comes out from behind a horse
and the very first thing he says is, "Gregory!"
Harold goes, "Ssssh! Hill's the name this trip... Harold Hill."
In the novelization of the screenplay, by Meredith Willson himself, you
find some extra dialogue and short scenes which apparently were filmed
but cut from the final print. When asked how he came up with the name
"Harold Hill," he tells Marcellus that it's his genuine,
honest-to-goodness, real name.
Here I sit, getting older by the minute, and I can't for the life of me
remember if he says that in the movie -- and I've seen it over 25 times!
(It's my favorite movie of all time.)
Oh, well. In a future essay I'm going to tell something I stumbled on
which made me think I knew how Meredith Willson came up with the name
"Harold Hill." Watch for it, coming soon to a newsgroup near you!
Spelvin

I'm pretty sure that the Gregory reference in the livery stable meeting in
the movie. Or at least it was in the version that was broadcast many times
during the late 80's and early 90's. I'll see if I still have my copy.

Melanie

[Steve Newport]

***@nospam.net (Spelvin)
Gary, you might be seeing a cut version!
---------------------------------
Even the commercial VHS cuts the new Gingold library scene, even though
a piece of it is in the accompanying trailer. ("It's a smutty book. The
Ruby Hat of Omar Khay- I- I..")



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[Lyle K. Neff]

Post by Steve Newport
Even the commercial VHS cuts the new Gingold library scene, even though
a piece of it is in the accompanying trailer. ("It's a smutty book. The
Ruby Hat of Omar Khay- I- I..")

"...I am appalled!"

[Spelvin]

Post by Spelvin
Gary, you might be seeing a cut version!
---------------------------------
Even the commercial VHS cuts the new Gingold library scene, even though
a piece of it is in the accompanying trailer. ("It's a smutty book. The
Ruby Hat of Omar Khay- I- I..")

It's not cut on my commercial VHS. Are you sure about this?

Spelvin

[Steve Newport]

***@nospam.net (Spelvin)
Gary, you might be seeing a cut version!
Even the commercial VHS cuts the new Gingold library scene, even though
a piece of it is in the accompanying trailer.
----------------------------------
It's not cut on my commercial VHS. Are you sure about this?
-----------------------------------
Unfortunately yes. It's an old one, but I was appalled. I've taped it
letter-boxed from cable-- but haven't checked that yet.



http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com

[Harlett O'Dowd]

Post by Spelvin
Gary, you might be seeing a cut version!
Even the commercial VHS cuts the new Gingold library scene, even though
a piece of it is in the accompanying trailer.
----------------------------------
It's not cut on my commercial VHS. Are you sure about this?
-----------------------------------
Unfortunately yes. It's an old one, but I was appalled. I've taped it
letter-boxed from cable-- but haven't checked that yet.

It's one of my favorite bits in the film - certainly of her performance.
I've never noticed it missing - and I must have seen the thing 30 times.
It's definitely IN the laserdisc and the letterbox version TCM runs.

[David Lawrence Levy]

Post by Gary Nichols
Does anyone else notice that in the Movie 'The Music Man' when Harold
Hill is getting ready to leave town and the Buddy Hackett character is
trying to hurry him along Buddy Hackett says some such as "Hurry up
Greg"? There is no other reference to Prof. Hill being named 'Greg'
in the movie that I can find. Now I assume his name is not Harold
Hill but is it Greg?

I haven't seen the film in a while, but my memory is that in the first
scene where Marcellus encounters Hill, he greets him as Greg and Hill
informs him that he's got a new racket (and a new name to go with it).
Unless that's only in the play.

David

[Kevin Marshall]

Post by Gary Nichols
Does anyone else notice that in the Movie 'The Music Man' when Harold
Hill is getting ready to leave town and the Buddy Hackett character is
trying to hurry him along Buddy Hackett says some such as "Hurry up
Greg"? There is no other reference to Prof. Hill being named 'Greg'
in the movie that I can find. Now I assume his name is not Harold
Hill but is it Greg?
Gary Nichols

There's definitely a reference to Gregory in the stage version, I think
with the same lines Spelvin mentions.

[Tyree The Reader]

In the play that we did awhile back I played Marcellus and I said " Gregory"
too.