Discussion:
The Book of Mormon
(too old to reply)
Robert Bouton
2011-09-13 01:01:30 UTC
Permalink
A number of years ago, when this newsgroup was full of activity, many
wished for the return of musical comedy to Broadway. Shows that were
actually funny, with original stories, like City of Angels, Top Banana
or The Boy Friend. Those prayers have been answered with The Book of
Mormon, an utterly traditional musical with one of those scores that
gets into your head and refuses to exit.

And unlike some previous works with Casey Nicholaw choreography, The
Book of Mormon not only respects Broadway musicals, it proves it loves
them. Old school aficionados might recognize references to Rodgers
and Hammerstein, but they're not there to mock them in any way. It's
just that, at times, the loony plot calls for something similar to
something in R&H. The reference is therefore a knowing nudge to fans
of traditional mid-century musicals: not saying "this is bad" but
"this is good."

Exactly one joke broke the fourth wall, and I'm betting it will be cut
for the tour, as it involves a piece of the set.

Surprisingly, among the folks who love ...Mormon most are religious
people. And yes, that includes actual Mormons. While certain tenets
are mocked, the Mormons depicted are admirable and lovable people.
And the musical has something to say about the power of faith and the
use of missionaries. At a time in which American involvement oversees
is being re-evaluated by people of all political stripes, it's
particularly fun to watch the cluelessness of young men traveling from
Utah to Uganda, making all sorts of wrong assumptions.

The book is funnier than the lyrics, but that's true of many recent
musical comedy hits including The Producers, ...Spelling Bee,
Hairspray and The Drowsy Chaperone. It would seem hilarious lyricists
are a dying breed. But a lot of the songs ARE very funny, and the
cast is fully invested in each ridiculous action. It's a lot of fun.
Harlett O'Dowd
2011-09-13 13:41:44 UTC
Permalink
what are you being paid to write this?

I was supremely underwhelmed by BoM. Most of the best bits of the book
were recycled moments from SOUTH PARK and the score was little more
than FORBIDDEN BROADWAY pastiches shoehorned into being something
close to book numbers.

I'm not saying the writers aren't talented, but they really really
really really played it safe on this one. Too safe. There's no real
accomplishment here.

And for a show that's such a gentle, warm-fuzzy satire, the incessant
use of the blue/blasphemy crutch strikes me as being more than lazy,
but of desperation. I'm not being a prude here. I think the OTT
material was absolutley pitch-perfect for the SOUTH PARK movie and for
AVENUE Q, but it's way off-base for this particular story.

Particularly in terms of score, it was my least favorite of the past
season and perhaps the least-worthy score winner since THE PRODUCERS.

In particular, SCOTTSBORO BOYS and CATCH ME IF YOU CAN have far more
ambitious scores and, for the most part, were successful in what they
set out to do.
Robert Bouton
2011-09-13 21:29:42 UTC
Permalink
"they really really really really played it safe"

Four reallys? Really? Sending up one of America's most in-the-news
sects is playing it safe?

It's rare I watch the South Park TV show, so I wouldn't know what was
recycled. In terms of musicals, Rannells' and Gad's characters strike
me as fairly original, although the phrase "not since Hot Spot" comes
to mind.

We agree that Parker & Stone's movie musicals, and Lopez's Avenue Q,
are far funnier, but I think the cusses here are more appropriate than
in the Colorado town. ("That bitch Anne Murray?" - what did she ever
do?) The Book of Mormon starts by presenting a strange and unfamiliar
world: unlike the places you and I live in, it's utterly free of
expletives. In contrast to the G-rated missionaries, the Africans
curse like any beset-upon New Yorker - cleverly, THIS is the world
audiences find familiar - and, as is explained, they're cursed with a
host of horrible problems.

Ultimately, this is a show about the positive transformative power of
theatre, and, speaking personally, that's the truest religion I know.
Post by Harlett O'Dowd
what are you being paid to write this?
I was supremely underwhelmed by BoM. Most of the best bits of the book
were recycled moments from SOUTH PARK and the score was little more
than FORBIDDEN BROADWAY pastiches shoehorned into being something
close to book numbers.
I'm not saying the writers aren't talented, but they really really
really really played it safe on this one. Too safe. There's no real
accomplishment here.
And for a show that's such a gentle, warm-fuzzy satire, the incessant
use of the blue/blasphemy crutch strikes me as being more than lazy,
but of desperation. I'm not being a prude here. I think the OTT
material was absolutley pitch-perfect for the SOUTH PARK movie and for
AVENUE Q, but it's way off-base for this particular story.
Particularly in terms of score, it was my least favorite of the past
season and perhaps the least-worthy score winner since THE PRODUCERS.
In particular, SCOTTSBORO BOYS and CATCH ME IF YOU CAN have far more
ambitious scores and, for the most part, were successful in what they
set out to do.
Stephen Newport
2011-09-14 01:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Based on a recording and a script-- I'm not impressed with BoM.

I'm interested to see if, like CHICAGO, this new FOLLIES finally gets
the acclaim the original version deserved.





http://community.webtv.net/NewportsRetro/TheWonderDog
Harlett O'Dowd
2011-09-14 13:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Based on a recording and a script-- I'm not impressed with BoM.  
I'm interested to see if, like CHICAGO, this new FOLLIES finally gets
the acclaim the original version deserved.
http://community.webtv.net/NewportsRetro/TheWonderDog
In terms of Tonys? Possibly (although, Best Musical aside, the
original production did pretty well Tony-wise.)

Although BB felt the production improved exponentially from DC (at
least they changed BP's dress) Matthew Murray feels that the primary
issues (book changes, unfocused direction/choreography and too much
emphasis on the angst of the four leads) have still not been solved.
Stephen Newport
2011-09-15 05:39:26 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@worldspan.com (Harlett=A0O'Dowd) FOLLIES: too much
emphasis on the angst of the four leads
---------------------------------------
SN: It's what I love about it.





http://community.webtv.net/NewportsRetro/TheWonderDog
Harlett O'Dowd
2011-09-15 13:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harlett O'Dowd
emphasis on the angst of the four leads
---------------------------------------
SN: It's what I love about it.
http://community.webtv.net/NewportsRetro/TheWonderDog
As we discussed elsewhere, you need to play the comedy and choose your
dramatic moments with care. It's too easy to wallow in angst - which
can kill energy and tempo. At least in DC, the angst bogged down the
show to the point where, even with all the cuts (and intermission,) it
still ran something like 2:45.
Stephen Newport
2011-09-15 19:45:52 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@worldspan.com (Harlett=A0O'Dowd) you need to play
the comedy and choose your dramatic moments with care.
------------------------------------
SN: That's my feeling about almost all theatre. As a director, I would
also advise the FOLLIES principals to be actively angry. They're not
miserable-- they're pissed!
Harlett O'Dowd
2011-09-14 13:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bouton
"they really really really really played it safe"
Four reallys?  Really?  Sending up one of America's most in-the-news
sects is playing it safe?
Ok, you got me. That should be THREE reallys.

Really in that the *controversy* is largely created by their press
agents. As even you noted, it's message is, ultimately, pro-religion
(every religion seems silly to nonbelievers, but if it brings people
peace and helps them to lead a happy moral life, why get so hot and
bothered over someone else's belief system?) - Mormons in particular
realize they've not only gotten off lightly here, their belief system
has actually been validated. Mormons would have a worse time at a Don
Rickels show.

Really in that instead of going for cleverness in their lyircs, they
go for the shock laugh of raunchy/blue material. Again, they've showed
they can be clever in other writings, and have chosen the easy out
here. Safe.

Really in that musically, the score - once again - consists of
pastiches - the "Hakuna Matata" number, the "Somewhere That's Green"
number, the R&H ballet, etc. They know and have affection for musical
theatre, but the score in no way aids in telling the story or adds any
emotional underpining to what's going on. Again, they (and others)
have done this meta-musical homage/lampoon in the past. The formula is
getting old. Again, what is the accomplishment of the writing other
than to mint money?
Robert Bouton
2011-09-14 15:24:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 14, 9:18 am, "Harlett O'Dowd" <***@worldspan.com>
wrote:... instead of going for cleverness in their lyircs, they
Post by Harlett O'Dowd
go for the shock laugh of raunchy/blue material. Again, they've showed
they can be clever in other writings, and have chosen the easy out
here. Safe.
Really in that musically, the score - once again - consists of
pastiches - the "Hakuna Matata" number, the "Somewhere That's Green"
number, the R&H ballet, etc. They know and have affection for musical
theatre, but the score in no way aids in telling the story or adds any
emotional underpining to what's going on. Again, they (and others)
have done this meta-musical homage/lampoon in the past. The formula is
getting old. Again, what is the accomplishment of the writing other
than to mint money?
"Accomplishment of the writing" implies that somebody (you?) needs
musical comedies to do something other than entertain. Top Banana, to
name an old favorite, did nothing other than make people laugh. And
that's The Book of Mormon's accomplishment as well.

I think we agree that the lyrics don't carry the comedy burden as well
as the book or the staging. We disagree about the music: I find it
infectious like a Jerry Herman score.

And then there's the question of Meta/Pastiche. I've been asking all
sorts of people since the Tonys: Did the intro to "I Believe" remind
you of anything? Nobody I've asked recognized the reference. So, are
people laughing because of the Rodgers send-up, or because the song
(and Rannells) is genuinely funny? Are we calling the opening number
a She Loves Me pastiche because it uses the same comic device Harnick
used in Sounds While Selling?

Musical theatre wonks (and that's not pejorative) see antecedents
while non-experts just see funny. Small House of Uncle Thomas - we
get it; others are too busy laughing.
Harlett O'Dowd
2011-09-15 01:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bouton
wrote:... instead of going for cleverness in their lyircs, they
Post by Harlett O'Dowd
go for the shock laugh of raunchy/blue material. Again, they've showed
they can be clever in other writings, and have chosen the easy out
here. Safe.
Really in that musically, the score - once again - consists of
pastiches - the "Hakuna Matata" number, the "Somewhere That's Green"
number, the R&H ballet, etc. They know and have affection for musical
theatre, but the score in no way aids in telling the story or adds any
emotional underpining to what's going on. Again, they (and others)
have done this meta-musical homage/lampoon in the past. The formula is
getting old. Again, what is the accomplishment of the writing other
than to mint money?
"Accomplishment of the writing" implies that somebody (you?) needs
musical comedies to do something other than entertain.  Top Banana, to
name an old favorite, did nothing other than make people laugh.  And
that's The Book of Mormon's accomplishment as well.
I think we agree that the lyrics don't carry the comedy burden as well
as the book or the staging.  We disagree about the music: I find it
infectious like a Jerry Herman score.
And then there's the question of Meta/Pastiche.  I've been asking all
sorts of people since the Tonys: Did the intro to "I Believe" remind
you of anything?  Nobody I've asked recognized the reference.  So, are
people laughing because of the Rodgers send-up, or because the song
(and Rannells) is genuinely funny?  Are we calling the opening number
a She Loves Me pastiche because it uses the same comic device Harnick
used in Sounds While Selling?
Musical theatre wonks (and that's not pejorative) see antecedents
while non-experts just see funny.  Small House of Uncle Thomas - we
get it; others are too busy laughing.
Harlett O'Dowd
2011-09-15 01:33:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bouton
"Accomplishment of the writing" implies that somebody (you?) needs
musical comedies to do something other than entertain.  Top Banana, to
name an old favorite, did nothing other than make people laugh.  And
that's The Book of Mormon's accomplishment as well.
1) Accomplishment in writing - meaning "worthy of winning the Tony for
Best Score." As I noted in my original post, I found it the least
accomplished score of this year's nominees - and I still do. Did TOP
BANANA win a Tony for its score?

Every formula grows stale after so many repeats. The FOLLIES, which
were fresh in 1907 and the best of the best around 1917-21 were
hopelessly out of date by 1931. How many late 60s and 70s shows still
adhered religiously to the R&H formula - and failed?

It's been 11 years since THE PRODUCERS. You may be fine with the cycle
continuing as is, but I'd like a little bit of a twist to this twist.
Again, I saw many things recycled in this show that you did not. To
you much of it may have still seemed fresh and fun to you. For me, I
was wondering why I paid so much money to get what I got for free on
TV.
Stephen Newport
2011-09-15 05:43:03 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@worldspan.com (Harlett=A0O'Dowd) How many late 60s
and 70s shows still adhered religiously to the R&H formula - and failed?
------------------------------------
SN: Too many, and what a shame. SAIL AWAY and CARMELINA look better and
better each year.





http://community.webtv.net/NewportsRetro/TheWonderDog
Remysun
2011-09-16 19:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harlett O'Dowd
They know and have affection for musical
theatre, but the score in no way aids in telling the story or adds any
emotional underpining to what's going on.
I've read some good analysis of Bernstein's use of the tritone in West
Side Story, but of course, the theme is much more tragic. Would you
mind comparing a good example from musical comedy and contrasting how
The Book of Mormon falls short?
Harlett O'Dowd
2011-09-18 16:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remysun
Post by Harlett O'Dowd
They know and have affection for musical
theatre, but the score in no way aids in telling the story or adds any
emotional underpining to what's going on.
I've read some good analysis of Bernstein's use of the tritone in West
Side Story, but of course, the theme is much more tragic. Would you
mind comparing a good example from musical comedy and contrasting how
The Book of Mormon falls short?
Please see above. The majority of the songs in BoM are take-offs of
songs from other musicals ("I Have Confidence," "Somewhere That's
Green," "Hakuna Matata," "Small House of Uncle Thomas" ... etc.) as
are the songs from the SOUTH PARK movie ("Belle," "One Day More," "Out
There," etc.) which is like one of their earliest projects, CANIBAL -
THE MUSICAL ("Oh What a Beautiful, Mornin,'" etc.) And while the songs
are, for the most part, fun and clearly these guys have a fondness for
musical theatre, there's nothing really going on there that, as I
mentioned earlier, you wouldn't find in a FORBIDDEN BROADWAY review.
You could easily cut just about all the songs in BoM and not lose the
plot.

Although it's unfair to set the bar so high, but if you're going to
use pastishe, use it as in, say FOLLIES - where a riff on "How Could
You Believe Me When I Said You Love Me When You Know I've Been a Liar
All My Life" beccomes "Buddy's Blues," which function simultanmeously
as

a) an old-time low vaudeville song and dance
b) the summing up of Buddy's relationships with both Sally and Margie
c) a musical nervous breakdown

or you could have the vaudeville numbers of CHICAGO, which are clearly
star turns modeled on 20s favorites (The Helen Morgan number, the
Sophie Tucker number .... Eddie Cantor, Bert Williams, etc.) and yet
each number also works on its own to develop character, plot. etc.

Again, my beef isn't that the score of BoM isn't fun, only in that I
found it formulaic and safe. If was not, in my opinion, of Tony
calibre. For me, the score for SCOTSBORO BOYS was far and away the
better achievement. Even with its problems, I found the score for
CATCH ME IF YOU CAN more ambitious and worthy than the score of BoM.

Back in the day, Jerry Herman was taken to task for *always* including
a big title tune production number (fine for DOLLY! and MAME, less so
for DEAR WORLD and (almost) for MACK AND MABEL) and folks have rolled
their eyes over the Kander and Ebb statements that in addition to life
being a cabaraet, it's also all that jazz, a 40s b-picture, a
depression-era dance marathon and, most recently, a minstrel show.

The BoM boys should also be taken to task for repeating not only
themselves, but the writers who have preceeded them.
Robert Bouton
2011-09-19 01:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harlett O'Dowd
The BoM boys should also be taken to task for repeating not only
themselves, but the writers who have preceeded them.
The Book of Mormon succeeds, brilliantly, in precisely what it sets
out to do: make the audience laugh, uproariously, from start to
finish. Just like many a Rodgers & Hammerstein musical, it depicts a
clash of cultures. So, the authors, who've clearly studied the masters
(and love them), model their show on the best of all possible
paradigms. In an age in which so many writers appear to be unfamiliar
with musical theatre's hallowed past, it's a delight to find a smash
hit which honors those traditions. None of the R & H references mock R
& H. And if The Lion King takes a few hits, well, I say "Good!"

Forbidden Broadway, by the way, lampooned Broadway during some of The
Street's leanest years, when few shows produced a single smirk. But it
closed a while ago. Thank God there's a worthy new wearer of the
mantle, "funniest show in town."
Stephen Newport
2011-10-02 06:07:44 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@aol.com
And if The Lion King takes a few hits, well, I say "Good!"
-----------------------------------
SN: Now there's a smash hit that's just awful.

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