The Fantasticks: It Depends on What you Pay, controversy

[Mimi206]

Hi,
This is my first post on this group.
Today I was listening to the original cast of The Fantasticks. What a
great score(humming 'soon it's gonna rain, I can see it") Anyway, when
it came to the song "It depends on what you pay" I got an uneasy
feeling for the first time since I've been listening to the show. For
those that don't know it, it describes the kinds of abductions the
fathers want to do to the daughter, but El Gallo calls it a rape. "You
can get the rape emphatic, you can get the rape polite". etc.

Like I said, that has never bothered me in the past. Here's a story,
in the late 80's, a local University put on the show, and some
protesters, picketed the show. It caused such an uproar that the
director and cast changed the word rape in the song with raid. It made
no sense, but it quieted the PC crowd.

Times change and peceptions change and I'm wondering if anyone else
has a problem with this?

With such political correctness out there, how do modern procuctions
handle the issue?

Should there be a problem with this?

Was there ever protests in NY during the run of the show?

How did the creators feel about it later on? (if they did have a
change of heart and did they change it)

Cassie

[Mark McGee]

When you do the show now, you have a choice of either doing "It Depends On
What You Pay" or the "Seduction", which is sung to the melody of the
"Abduction". The lyrics are much milder and work just as well. The song is
more appropriate for people who are sensitive about the non-politically
correct original song and especially for some high schools who might have a
problem with the song.

Post by Mimi206
Hi,
This is my first post on this group.
Today I was listening to the original cast of The Fantasticks. What a
great score(humming 'soon it's gonna rain, I can see it") Anyway, when
it came to the song "It depends on what you pay" I got an uneasy
feeling for the first time since I've been listening to the show. For
those that don't know it, it describes the kinds of abductions the
fathers want to do to the daughter, but El Gallo calls it a rape. "You
can get the rape emphatic, you can get the rape polite". etc.
Like I said, that has never bothered me in the past. Here's a story,
in the late 80's, a local University put on the show, and some
protesters, picketed the show. It caused such an uproar that the
director and cast changed the word rape in the song with raid. It made
no sense, but it quieted the PC crowd.
Times change and peceptions change and I'm wondering if anyone else
has a problem with this?
With such political correctness out there, how do modern procuctions
handle the issue?
Should there be a problem with this?
Was there ever protests in NY during the run of the show?
How did the creators feel about it later on? (if they did have a
change of heart and did they change it)
Cassie

[Christopher Jahn]

Post by Mimi206
Hi,
This is my first post on this group.
Today I was listening to the original cast of The Fantasticks.
What a great score(humming 'soon it's gonna rain, I can see
it") Anyway, when it came to the song "It depends on what you
pay" I got an uneasy feeling for the first time since I've
been listening to the show. For those that don't know it, it
describes the kinds of abductions the fathers want to do to
the daughter, but El Gallo calls it a rape. "You can get the
rape emphatic, you can get the rape polite". etc.

<snip>

Post by Mimi206
With such political correctness out there, how do modern
procuctions handle the issue?
Should there be a problem with this?

No, there shouldn't.

Did you actuall SEE the play? Or read the book? There's a whole
scene in there. The songs are not the musical, and only a fool
judges a musical without referencing the book.

IF you had bothered to read the book, you'd find that Bellamy
(the girl's father) is absolutely not comfortable with the word
'rape.' "Do you have to call it that?" he whines. "Call it what
you like," replies El Gallo, "but the proper term IS 'rape'."

El Gallo is using that word specifically to make the fathers
uncomfortable, EVEN AS HE'S SELLING THEM on using him for the
plan.

Remember, this is the FATHERS' plan. El Gallo doesn't approve,
he participates. He gives them every opportunity to drop their
plan, but the fathers persist in their folly EVEN as El Gallo
raises the stakes of it beyond all reason.

More than anything else, El Gallo is there to teach everyone in
the play a lesson. The fathers are toying with their children's
emotional lives, the children are making life and death decisions
without any reference to how serious the consequences of failure
might be.

Post by Mimi206
Was there ever protests in NY during the run of the show?

No. It's only in the last 10-15 years that it's become an issue.
Our culture is degenerating into a bunch of namby-pamby dweebs.

Sadly, as the US educational system dissolves into a series of
multiple-choice tests, Americans are losing the facility to
engage in critical thinking. Instead of analyzing the scene, we
get knee-jerk reactions to the utterance of a word, without any
comprehension that there may be a valid reason for the word.

[Mimi206]

Did you actually SEE the play? Or read the book? There's a whole
scene in there. The songs are not the musical, and only a fool
judges a musical without referencing the book.
IF you had bothered to read the book, you'd find that Bellamy
(the girl's father) is absolutely not comfortable with the word
'rape.' "Do you have to call it that?" he whines. "Call it what
you like," replies El Gallo, "but the proper term IS 'rape'."

CHristopher,

First, it's been a while since I've seen the play.

Second, I did not know there was a book.

The lines you quoted are actually on the album I realize that.

You have a point about El Gallo teaching everyone lessons. Like he
says, everyone must be burned a bit by the sun.

I was just wondering what others thought about it.

Thanks for enlightening me.

Cassie

[Irrational Number]

Post by Mimi206
Second, I did not know there was a book.

Random theatre terminology: the "book" _is_ the play.

-- Anita --

[Calvin]

I saw it in 1965, five years into its long run. At the time
New York was the most enchanting place I had ever
been, by far, and it was my second trip there. The
Fantasticks captured and expressed that enchantment
beautifully. When a previous poster mentioned 'soon
it's gonna rain' I had a slight flashback over the
intervening 42 years. I must dig up the old LP and play
it tonight.

[d***@yahoo.com]

Welcome, Mimi!
8 or 9 years ago there was a thread on this topic. Still worth
reading:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.theatre.musicals/browse_thread/thread/bd8b51abd421f63f/505d9f6b49d9eca9?lnk=gst&q=%22It+Depends+on+what+you+pay%22&rnum=4&hl=en#505d9f6b49d9eca9

[Steve Newport]

***@windstream.net (Calvin)
I saw it in 1965, five years into its long run. I must dig up the old LP
and play it tonight.
-------------------------------------
I've been in five productions in three different roles. Howard Keel and
Anna Maria Alberghetti co-starred in a stock tour.

O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

[Calvin]

Post by Steve Newport
I've been in five productions in three different roles. Howard Keel and
Anna Maria Alberghetti co-starred in a stock tour.

I have a hazy memory of a character called, maybe, the Mute.
In the Sullivan St. production I don't remember him, but do
from a local production in Florida long ago. If I recall right,
he was there to serve the play, assist in every way to move
it forward, and was totally dedicated, but didn't have an actual
part in the story. What a nice concept, if I remember it correctly.

[Mimi206]

Post by Irrational Number
Random theatre terminology: the "book" _is_ the play.
-- Anita --

Ever feel like a dufus? Well I do :) SHould have known better the
poster was refering to the musical book.

DUH!!!!

Cassie

[Steve Newport]

***@actorsplayhouse.org (Christopher=A0Jahn) It's only in the last
10-15 years that it's become an issue. Our culture is degenerating into
a bunch of namby-pamby dweebs. Sadly, as the US educational system
dissolves into a series of multiple-choice tests, Americans are losing
the facility to engage in critical thinking. Instead of analyzing the
scene, we get knee-jerk reactions to the utterance of a word
------------------------------------------
We used to have more of that here on RATM. The war may have diverted
many from the PC crap they were practicing.

O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

[Bill Pasternak]

Post by Mimi206
Hi,
This is my first post on this group.
Today I was listening to the original cast of The Fantasticks. What a
great score(humming 'soon it's gonna rain, I can see it") Anyway, when
it came to the song "It depends on what you pay" I got an uneasy
feeling for the first time since I've been listening to the show. For
those that don't know it, it describes the kinds of abductions the
fathers want to do to the daughter, but El Gallo calls it a rape. "You
can get the rape emphatic, you can get the rape polite". etc.
Like I said, that has never bothered me in the past. Here's a story,
in the late 80's, a local University put on the show, and some
protesters, picketed the show. It caused such an uproar that the
director and cast changed the word rape in the song with raid. It made
no sense, but it quieted the PC crowd.
Times change and peceptions change and I'm wondering if anyone else
has a problem with this?
With such political correctness out there, how do modern procuctions
handle the issue?
Should there be a problem with this?
Was there ever protests in NY during the run of the show?
How did the creators feel about it later on? (if they did have a
change of heart and did they change it)
Cassie

Maybe I am jaded freom 35+ years in the TV news business, but I detest
when the revisionists make changes to a piece of "art" just so as to
make it more politically acceptable. And to me, Fantasticks is a true
piece of musical theater art -- that Ill be seeing again on May 13th.

The last time I saw it was in the '70's at the old Sullivan Street
Playhouse when my friend was playing Luisa and invited us to see her in
it.

In all, I guess I have seen this one about a dozen since since Orbach
and Gardner created the roles and never tire of it. It is always fresh,
alive and poignant.

[Steve Newport]

***@juno.com (Bill=A0Pasternak)
Fantasticks is a true piece of musical theater art -- that Ill be seeing
again on May 13th. The last time I saw it was in the '70's at the old
Sullivan Street Playhouse when my friend was playing Luisa and invited
us to see her in it.
In all, I guess I have seen this one about a dozen since since Orbach
and Gardner created the roles
-------------------------------------------
Rita's recent CD is a must-have.

O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

[Bill Pasternak]

Post by Steve Newport
Fantasticks is a true piece of musical theater art -- that Ill be seeing
again on May 13th. The last time I saw it was in the '70's at the old
Sullivan Street Playhouse when my friend was playing Luisa and invited
us to see her in it.
In all, I guess I have seen this one about a dozen since since Orbach
and Gardner created the roles
-------------------------------------------
Rita's recent CD is a must-have.
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

Thanks Steve. Ill check it out on Amazon.com -- de Bill P.

[Bill Pasternak]

Post by Steve Newport
Fantasticks is a true piece of musical theater art -- that Ill be seeing
again on May 13th. The last time I saw it was in the '70's at the old
Sullivan Street Playhouse when my friend was playing Luisa and invited
us to see her in it.
In all, I guess I have seen this one about a dozen since since Orbach
and Gardner created the roles
-------------------------------------------
Rita's recent CD is a must-have.
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

PS -- I took one listen on Amazon and ordered it. Thank you -- I had no
idea she had finally come out with a CD. -- Bill P.

[Steve Newport]

***@juno.com (Bill Pasternak)
I took one listen on Amazon and ordered it. Thank you -- I had no idea
she (Rita Garner) had finally come out with a CD.
---------------------------------------
Her patter is fun, too. She should write a book. The A FAMILY AFFAIR
cast album is also on CD now. She's the ingenue, opposite Larry Kert.
(Music by John Kander.)

O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

[Bill Pasternak]

Post by Steve Newport
I took one listen on Amazon and ordered it. Thank you -- I had no idea
she (Rita Garner) had finally come out with a CD.
---------------------------------------
Her patter is fun, too. She should write a book. The A FAMILY AFFAIR
cast album is also on CD now. She's the ingenue, opposite Larry Kert.
(Music by John Kander.)
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

It was because of her reminiscences -- in part -- that I bought it. My
friend Juli -- who is now choreographing shows in Europe -- knew Rita --
in the late '60's and early '70's (tho I cannot recall which stage name
Juli was using back then). I just bought a second copy and having it
mailed direct to Juli as a surprise.

Ill Look into Family Affir when I get home from work. Right now it is
time to drive 34 miles into L.A. to do 8 hours of television for a living.

Thanks again --de Bill P.

[Steve Newport]

***@juno.com (Bill Pasternak)
I took one listen on Amazon and ordered it. Thank you -- I had no idea
she (Rita Gardner) had finally come out with a CD. It was because of her
reminiscences -- in part -- that I bought it. I'll look into A Family
Affair when I get home from work. Thanks again.
---------------------------------
Also in the AFA cast: Eileen Heckart, Morris Carnovsky, Shelley Berman,
and Linda Lavin.

O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

[Bill]

SN: << Also in the AFA cast: Eileen Heckart, Morris Carnovsky, Shelley
Berman, and Linda Lavin. >>
................
And Bibi Osterwald! Bibi Osterwald!

Bill

[Steve Newport]

***@webtv.net (Bill)
<<<Also in the cast: Eileen Heckart, Morris Carnovsky, Shelley Berman,
and Linda Lavin.>>>
...............
And Bibi Osterwald! Bibi Osterwald!
-------------------------
Mais oui. Also Jack DeLon of TV's CAROUSEL and Broadway's JENNIE. Large
man, great voice!

O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

[Bill Pasternak]

Post by Steve Newport
<<<Also in the cast: Eileen Heckart, Morris Carnovsky, Shelley Berman,
and Linda Lavin.>>>
...............
And Bibi Osterwald! Bibi Osterwald!
-------------------------
Mais oui. Also Jack DeLon of TV's CAROUSEL and Broadway's JENNIE. Large
man, great voice!
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

Got Rita's CD today just as I was leaving to do 8 hours of TV. So I
popped it into the player in the Sentra and was immediately enthralled.
Heck -- I did not even mind the daily traffic snarl in the Sepulveda
Pass!

Got about half way through -- did my 8 hrs in TV news land and listened
to the rest on the much faster ride home.

I especially loved her liner about telling her ex husband about getting
the Luisa role in Fantasticks and him replying by asking if she really
wanted to do that show.

Steve -- Again I thank you for the heads up on this one. Its kind of
like tile travel -- for lack of a better description. de Bill P.

[Steve Newport]

Was: The Fantasticks: It Depends on What you Pay, controversy -- Att
Steve N.

From: ***@juno.com (Bill=A0Pasternak) Got Rita's CD today. I
especially loved her telling her ex husband about getting the Luisa role
in Fantasticks and him replying by asking if she really wanted to do
that show.
Steve -- Again I thank you for the heads up on this one.
--------------------------------------
I loved the story about her understudying for two Broadway shows while
appearing off-Broadway-- and how she couldn't have done it without Larry
Hagman and his motorcycle.

O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

[Bill Pasternak]

Post by Steve Newport
Was: The Fantasticks: It Depends on What you Pay, controversy -- Att
Steve N.
especially loved her telling her ex husband about getting the Luisa role
in Fantasticks and him replying by asking if she really wanted to do
that show.
Steve -- Again I thank you for the heads up on this one.
--------------------------------------
I loved the story about her understudying for two Broadway shows while
appearing off-Broadway-- and how she couldn't have done it without Larry
Hagman and his motorcycle.
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com
O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O~O

The whole CD for me is literally "time travel" back to when I was much,
much younger, far less wise and the co-owner of Mind Garden Electronics
in Brooklyn. We supplied lighting and sound to many tiny venues in the
Village and really all over the city. (We were the ones called when a
show could not afford to use Castle Lighting or one of the other
established big names. We worked cheap!)

Rita's words brought all the memories of those days front and center in
my thoughts from wherever they were hiding all these years. She was so
right about all the seats being broken and there being no heat in
winter. But she forgot to mention no air conditioning in the summer.
Still it was oh so much fun!

If ever I hear she is coming to do the show here in L.A. Ill be first in
line to buy tickets. -- de Bill P.